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1.
Atzmus | July 13, 2007 at 3:27 pm
You got to worry about a party when you start attracting the ’sad kids’ like Mobius and Y-love.
Radloh – you’re looking fine these days – nice photo.
2.
shitalphin | July 13, 2007 at 4:21 pm
no trannies?
3.
anon | July 13, 2007 at 6:19 pm
atzmus should mbe change name to fucker
4.
anon | July 13, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Radloh is hot.
no wonder….
5.
Mobius | July 13, 2007 at 8:42 pm
max–gfy
6.
atzmus | July 14, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Mobius you called Baruch T – “sideshow bob”!
Baruch is one of the most important xlubis in recent history – (at least in my twisted mind) have you spoken to him? and asked him his-story?
ok mobi – for arguments sake i will (gfm_)and what does that do – make me happy for half an hour or so? – is that what you do to find your inner happiness? I don’t understand your message… you’re not actually helping me here –
I indirectly call you and Y-love ’sad kids’ – which by your own childish and wet blouse demonstration, you for one, obviously are.
Mobius – i can’t even imagine what it’s like to be you, a prison sentence that i’m glad i don’t have to experience in this lifetime, maybe next time i’ll come back as you and you as me?
- wouldn’t that be an existential cosmic karmic mind mess?
But i really wish you only love, light and blessings – for health, happiness and peace.
anon – ? why? don’t you have the balls/ovum to be yourself? let me also ask you is Atzmus not a fcuker? surely if you’ve read my thesis you’d realise that Atzmus is the BIGGEST fcuker EVER!
get your copy here: http://stores.lulu.com/atzmus
7.
radloh | July 14, 2007 at 11:42 pm
why do lubavitchers, steeped, supposedly, in love based mysticsm, express the most virulent negative energy known to man. v’ani b’soichom.
8.
atzmus | July 15, 2007 at 1:14 pm
gillu Atzmus – nimnu ha’nimos – it is duvka in Atzmus that there is no real difference between good and bad, in fact ‘bad’ – negative energy – is ‘closer’ to the real revelation of Atzmus – because it does not need to be limited to traditional views of God being ‘good’.
Atzmus is a darkness so dark it does not even reveal itself a darkness, it is not even in the geder of the dark/light duality.
It is the thickness of sepperation that make you, you and me, me!
get your copy here: http://stores.lulu.com/atzmus
9.
shlomo | July 15, 2007 at 3:19 pm
radloh,
see sicha on talmidie rabi akiva
10.
Mobius | July 15, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Mobius you called Baruch T – “sideshow bob”!
exclusively because of his jewfro. i thought he was very nice and it wasn’t intended as an insult. i call everyone with a jewfro sideshow bob. i’m being silly, not hurtful.
but why would you give me the benefit of the doubt considering you’re one of my most proactive haters?
I indirectly call you and Y-love ’sad kids’ – which by your own childish and wet blouse demonstration, you for one, obviously are.
i see, so when someone publicly insults you and you stand up for yourself by telling them to shove it, you’re being childish? got it.
real men let people walk all over them. gotcha.
Mobius – i can’t even imagine what it’s like to be you, a prison sentence that i’m glad i don’t have to experience in this lifetime, maybe next time i’ll come back as you and you as me?
nope — you couldn’t possibly imagine what it’s like to have dozens of emotionally disturbed, dysfunctional jews from all walks of life harassing you and degrading you for any number of inventive self-concocted reasons.
what’s yours? oh right, if i recall, your dismay at the fact that i never added your blog to the jewschool blogroll, which led you to presume that i think i’m better than you. nothing petty or pathetic in that…
But i really wish you only love, light and blessings – for health, happiness and peace.
mhmm… that’s why you consistently seek out every opportunity to deride me. because you wish me only the best.
who are kidding?
i bet we’d be friends if you realized what a dick you’re being.
11.
atzmus | July 15, 2007 at 10:07 pm
once and for all, i declare a shite poem to be thrown in the air:
I have no portion in israel,
I forsake my peoplehood,
I release the sorrow of the past,
The pain of my forbares,
I know not who I am,
I take nothing for granted,
The I which I speak from is unknown and unknowable,
My heart is set free in the ever becoming of my soul,
I let go of the I i don’t know
I am at peace at the centre of my being,
I only take good things personally,
Those things that insult the me, i think i am, i don’t take personally,
For how can they be personal when i don’t even know the ‘who’ that ‘i am’ is?
Israel you are so pained, so hurt from wars that you fight in vain,
But it is you living the dream called home,
The dream you are in charge of, you, you alone,
YOur fears, your suffering all a waste,
Because you create those things you detest,
We wrongly define ourselves by pain and isolation,
But if this is Jewish then there is no Jewish Nation,
We hold on strong to the pain of the past,
If you hold on to hurt, nothing can last,
If you feel pain and suffering inside you,
Then whatever happens it’s gonna hurt too,
There once was a man who complained to his Rebbe,
“Everyone in shul, on me they are treading,”
The Rebbe replied something quite deep,
“If you spread YOURSELF all over the room,
Then people can’t help treading on your feet,”
Now I say to this fellow who shows promise of light,
Let go of you self and let your soul take flight,
In you i see the suffering Shechina depicted,
But she needs to know that it is all self inflicted,
She is so sad, so pained and upset,
She is covering her eyes, trying not to detect,
The true redemption is here,
Here and now,
Here and now,
Here and now,
Here and now,
Here and now,
Here and now,
Here and now,
Here and now,
You might find through love or SevenFatCow.
12.
atgate231 | July 15, 2007 at 10:53 pm
If it is here and now how is it redemption? Redemption from what?
13.
radloh | July 15, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Atzmus, imprisoned.
14.
atzmus | July 16, 2007 at 9:11 am
Every Jew is Atzmus u Mahus ‘imprisioned’ in a guf.
15.
atzmus | July 16, 2007 at 9:19 am
atgate –
What if the Era of Moshiach was here already? and yet you convince yourself – because of your upbringing that you have a big Evil Inclination/Death Instinct/Negative Imagination or whatever you wanna call it? – but in truth your were 100% holy and righteous?
That peace, inner peace & outer peace are available to you right now! that wealth beyond your dreams was yours, that you could live for 100 years – if you wanted to?
What if exile is of our own making? what if everything is actually God? What if you’d been living in a dream of who you ‘think’ you are?
What if – that was the formular?
The Redeption is here and now – not some distant future.
The Redeption of you mind for mental slavery.
16.
atzmus | July 16, 2007 at 9:23 am
correction – 1000 years
17.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 9:57 am
“If those who lead you say to you, ‘See, the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the Sea, then the fish will precede you.’ Rather the kingdom is already inside of you.” (Gnostic Gospel of Thomas 3, 1st Century, CE)
“The Kingdom of the Father will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying ‘Here it is’ or ‘There it is.’ Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is already spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it.” (Gnostic Gospel of Thomas 113, 1st Century, CE)
18.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 10:13 am
The “redemption” is not and will not be because of some man OUT THERE (be it a Jesus, Sabbatai Zevi, or the Rebbe), but because of the Ruach HaKodesh, Zeir Anpin, IN HERE — where it goes UNSEEN, because we are always looking OUT THERE to see it.
19.
atgate231 | July 16, 2007 at 11:00 am
If it is here and now then it always was here and now so there never was an exile so how is it redemption? Why is it the “era of Moshiach” if it always was?
20.
atzmus | July 16, 2007 at 11:22 am
I didn’t say it – ‘always was’
In my mind the true and actual redemption started in ernest in 1990, when the Rebbe said that ‘this is the year the the King Messiah is revealed’ – I belive that the very nature of the world changed from that point on.
To quote myself:
“There is a final, paradoxical twist to the argument, and it is that the Rebbe speaks as if the transformation brought about in Man’s perception of the World, through the internalizing of the his messianic theology, does not take place only on the perceptual level. It actually objectively changes the World. Behind this may lie the idea, found in the Midrash and in classic Kabbalah, that Creation is not a past, totally completed event, but an ongoing process in which Man collaborates, or fails to collaborate, with God to complete. At any point in this process Creation is perfect: it is as it is meant to be then, but there is still potential to be realized before the process is complete. As a result of the Rebbe’s theological paradigm shift, the fabric of the material world is not only changed conceptually, but also, as in quantum physics, the nature of the physical changes in response to this conceptual revaluation. It is Man’s re-conception of the world and of the nature of reality that brings about a transformation in the actual nature of reality.
If we hold that the Divine Presence has indeed descended to earth, and that the divine Essence is manifest in the physicality of the world, it follows that the nature of the physical world is different from what we have hitherto perceived it to be. The simple Essence of God, as it is manifest in physicality, has the reflective quality of the ‘infinite simplicity that has no form’. It merely reflects the projections of Man on to it. Matter reflects back and transforms itself according to the beliefs of those viewing it. It behaves magically and miraculously. Miracles are more ‘natural’ than we thought them to be. Materiality now has a divine and almost magical quality: it mirrors the conception of it that the viewer has, materiality is miraculous. Thus the world is changed and physicality transformed. It takes on the broad characteristics of the Essence of God, of Atzmus.”
pp.148-149 The Messianic Doctrine of the Lubavitcher Rebbe…
get your copy here: http://stores.lulu.com/atzmus
21.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 11:49 am
atgate,
IT is in exile, not US.
22.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 12:01 pm
or, if we ARE in “exile” at all, it’s from IT.
23.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 12:06 pm
the fact is, it seems to me and from what I’m trying to say here, that “exile” (in the Judeo-Christian way we’re accoustomed to looking at it) is an outer illusion that perpetuates the inner “exile” itself.
24.
atgate231 | July 16, 2007 at 12:16 pm
If I understand you correctly, there are two phases to the redemption. One, the Rebbe changed reality so that the individual can now open his or her eyes and two, the actual opening of the eyes. The first phase is ludicrous – the nature of the world did not change – ’91 was the same reality as ’89. This also assumes that there was a time when God’s essence was not in this world and the Rebbe had to bring it down to make possible the opening of the eyes. That is ludicrous as well.
According to you, the first phase was the Redemption while the second phase is just realizing this (and in itself this is not redemption, for redemption has already taken place). I see no reason to accept that the Rebbe changed anything at all. God’s essence was always here and now and so the opening of the eyes is not strictly speaking redemption.
25.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 12:22 pm
or, put another way, it seems to me that “exile” and “redemption,” as you and Atzmus are dealing with it, are projections of an inner process onto an outer possibility that disowns and separates us from the inner process itself.
In other words, what I’m suggesting is that “exile” and “redmption” are both states of CONSCIOUSNESS not cognition. “Exile” meaning that we are UNCONSCIOUS of the autonomous inner divinity, and “redemption” meaning that we WAKE UP to and reconnect to its living presence in us.
But for either of those to happen, the ego and the intellect need to shut up and LISTEN to and literally ENCOUNTER what IS. As Job said to God when HE finally shut the hell up and listened:
“I know that you are all-powerful. I am the man who obscured your designs with my empty-headed words. I have been holding forth on matters I cannot understand, on marvels beyond me and my knowledge. I knew you then by hearsay; but now, HAVING SEEN YOU WITH MY OWN EYES, I retract all I have said, and in dust and ashes I repent.” (Job 42:1-6)
26.
atgate231 | July 16, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Yalhak,
Agreed. In Chasidism it is called Geulah Pratis (individual redemption, i.e. enlightenment) as distinct from Geulah Klalis (general redemption). In Jewish tradition they are two separate things (though dependant on each other). Atzmus is conflating the two in an absurd manner…
27.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Atgate,
Gut gezokt! My admiration for and appreciation of you only increases.
Besides, I was sticking my nose into a conversation where it didn’t belong in the first place. I think it’s called being “gratuitous.”
28.
atzmus | July 16, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Look i’m explaining how i understand the Rebbe’s messianic theology – at this moment i’m NOT going to be arguing with both Yalhak & Atgate, but just Atgate.
Firstly you say: “If I understand you correctly,”
If you did then you wouldn’t be arguing would you?
“there are two phases to the redemption”.
No there are MANY phases to the redemption, depending on what you’re talking about.
The discussion here is really about the nature of physical existence, and how that may or may not have changed.
If you remember the Midrash says something like – originally the trees were mean to be edible (based of a pasuk in Gen.) but the trees rebeld believing that they would not survive if they were entirely edible.
This rebelion of the physical world against the will of it’s creator – demonstrates the long held assumption that the physical world it’self was antithetical to the divine will.
The world a ‘covering and concealment’ of God.
Here are a few examples from the Alter Rebbe;
“‘Therefore are all worldly things severe and evil and the wicked prevail in it, [i.e. the world] and so forth. Ch 25.
On a personal level ‘a completely righteous man… has completely divested himself of the filthy garments of evil.’
But what does he mean, surely this can’t mean to hate the body?
‘That is to say, he utterly despises the pleasures of this world, finding no enjoyment in human pleasures of merely gratifying the physical appetites, …for whatever is of the sitra achra is hated by the perfectly righteous with an absolute hatred…-Ch10
The body too must also be hated and if necessary crushed, as mentioned previously ‘A wooden beam that will not catch fire should be splintered…a body into which the light of the soul does not penetrate should be crushed…’ Zohar 3. 168a’ and ‘the body is referred to as ‘ the skin of the serpent.’- Zohar’ Ch 31, the lowest animal and it is its shed skin, even the snake has let go of it.”
- (Gnosticism & Monism in Jewish Mysticism, A relationship rebalanced. Max Ariel Kohanzad)
This was the way the physical world/the physical body was seen from the viewpoint of Chassidus – as an actual enemy to be crushed and regected.
So I’m arguing that pre-1990, even if a person experienced a personal redemption of some kind, the physical world was still antithetical to it, was still an existence that rebeled against the will of God.
You say – “the nature of the world did not change – ’91 was the same reality as ’89.”
How do you know?
You said:
“This also assumes that there was a time when God’s essence was not in this world and the Rebbe had to bring it down to make possible the opening of the eyes.”
Correct! have you not read Basi L’gani? that is what the Rebbe claims to have done, to have brought down the divine prescents into the world.
You said:
“According to you, the first phase was the Redemption while the second phase is just realizing this (and in itself this is not redemption, for redemption has already taken place).”
No, that’s not exactly what i’m saying.
I believe that the Redemption of the Physicality of the world took place in 1990.
To quote myself again:
“It is my argument that since 1990 the Rebbe believed that not only he had been revealed as the Messiah, but also that the world itself had in some way begun to undergo a radical transformation: his messianic theology had become ‘real’ from that date. The Rebbe often said that the Redemption was already here, and that all people needed to do was to accept that it had come.
‘And the only thing missing is that a Jew should open his eyes, and if he does so he will see that all is ready for the Redemption! There is already the Set Table [Shulchan Aruch]; there is already the Leviathan and the Behemoth and the hidden wine. The Jewish people already sit at the table ‘the table of their Father’ (Brachos 3a) (the Holy One Blessed Be He), together with our righteous Moshiach.’[Besuras HaGeulo, p. 156 and Sefer haSichos, 1992, vol. 1, p. 152.]
And yet, as we have noted elsewhere, the Rebbe, having proclaimed this doctrine of a fully realized eschatology, would the next moment cry bitterly for the fact that the actual redemption had not arrived, and that the world was still in exile. As we noted, this paradox is at least softened by arguing that although the physical, material world has already been redeemed, the realm of human consciousness has not. The Jewish people and the world at large have not yet recognised that Exile, and therefore also Redemption, are now only a state of mind, and that the process of Redemption merely requires human beings to accept it, and allow it to happen. From this perspective the World is already perfect, and contains enough material goods for Man to live in it in a perpetual utopia. The main problem is that Man believes either that the World is intrinsically and ineluctably evil, or that it is not perfect, but needs fixing in some way. The solution is to convince people to believe that the world is perfect, and so to acknowledge that ‘the redemption has arrived’. The more individuals who do so, the more this Redemption becomes a reality. And, as we saw before, the instrument for effecting this radical transformation are the teachings of the Messiah, in effect the teachings of the Rebbe himself, especially his teaching about Atzmus. Personal redemption is achieved through understanding and internalising this new idea of the nature of God and reality, and ultimately of the nature of self. If humanity does not redeem its consciousness, the World will continue to behave as if it is not, in truth, redeemed. Thus the Rebbe’s last main directive was to encourage the learning, publicizing and teaching of his own messianic theology, as a necessary step towards the final Redemption.” pp.147-148 The Messianic Doctrine of the Lubavitcher Rebbe…
get your copy here: http://stores.lulu.com/atzmus
the things you are arguing with me as if – i’m trying to prove to you that this is so – i’m not – this is my understanding of the Rebbe.
29.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Atzmus,
I understand. No need to argue with me now or in the future. Besides, as I said to Atgate, I stuck my nose in where it didn’t belong and I apologize.
Yalhak
30.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 16, 2007 at 2:33 pm
In other words, you and atgate duke it out, but I don’t know enough about the Rebbe’s Chasidus on ANY level (let alone its messianism) to even open my mouth. Better for me to keep it shut and be thought a fool then to open it (as I have) and remove all doubt.
Over and out,
Yalhak
31.
Y-LOVE | July 16, 2007 at 2:40 pm
w8 w8 w8, why am I a “sad kid”?
32.
atzmus | July 16, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Yalhak – can you please email max@kohanzad.com
Y-Love – just my gut feelings
33.
atgate231 | July 16, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Atzmus,
First off, even if I understand you correctly I can still disagree with you.
The claim that physical reality changed in 1990 is absurd – I don’t have to disprove it – but rather it is you who have to prove that it is so. I see no reason to believe that all those quotations you brought (from Medrash and the AR) do not apply still now. Reality has not changed
You said,
“So I’m arguing that pre-1990, even if a person experienced a personal redemption of some kind, the physical world was still antithetical to it, was still an existence that rebeled against the will of God.”
Again, the physical world is just as much antithetical to your so called “personal redemption” as in 1989.
And as you quote the Rebbe “And the only thing missing is that a Jew should open his eyes, and if he does so he will see that all is ready for the Redemption”
He says “he will see that all is READY” not that all is redeemed.
You said,
“As we noted, this paradox is at least softened by arguing that although the physical, material world has already been redeemed, the realm of human consciousness has not.”
I’m very sorry but this is your own bullshit toireh. Thank you very much.
You said,
“From this perspective the World is already perfect, and contains enough material goods for Man to live in it in a perpetual utopia.”
Give me a break. The world is not any better than it ever was. Are you blind or just naïve?
You said,
“The solution is to convince people to believe that the world is perfect, and so to acknowledge that ‘the redemption has arrived’.”
Great solution! But people had this realization way before 1990. And this realization is related to Geula Pratis not Geula Klalis.
What you are essentially doing is giving your own definition of redemption and then saying “look according to my criteria this redemption (of my own definition) has already come.” Yippy-yai-yay!
34.
atzmus | July 18, 2007 at 4:57 am
give yourself a brake
35.
Yoseph Leib | July 18, 2007 at 9:03 am
Every Moshiach is only to those who were set free by them. The Chabad Moshiach came in 1990, and directed his thing to whoever recieved it– but the other Messiahs came, and brought as much truth to other peoples, if not more. A moshiach only counts according to who accepts them.
36.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | July 18, 2007 at 9:11 am
yossel,
zeir tif! where have you been all our lives?
yalhak
37.
atzmus | July 18, 2007 at 5:22 pm
“There is no Messiah, except the Messiah that says you are your own Messiah!” – Max Kohanzad
(in conversation with some dued in Oxford – sometime in 1996 whilst cleaning Shumely’s Chabad House Kitchen for passover)