Happiness overflows like a clogged toilet.
October 18, 2007
A list of failed Messiahs…. (from the time period ‘m looking at)
Talk amongst your selfs..
# Alexander the Great[1]
# Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)
# Simon (c. 4 BCE)
# Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)
# Honi the circle-maker
# Jesus
# Theudas (44-46) in the Roman province of Judea
# Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
# Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War
# Moses of Crete (5th century)
# Isḥaḳ ben Ya’ḳub Obadiah Abu ‘Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
# Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya’ḳub Obadiah Abu ‘Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
# Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
# David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
# Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
# Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
# Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
# Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.
# David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
# Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
# Hayim Vital (1542-1620)
# Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
# Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.
if you have anything to say about any of these guys in particular. let me know.
If you have anything to share let me know. you can also email me. I’m asking for intelligent opinions and views. Preferably ones that can be backed (by midrashim).
I’m currently in hiding, doing research for a paper. Boring myself to sleep. I want some more interesting facts, maybe text in English.
Come on, put those scholarly brains to work. Help a sister out.
You were all much help with the whole cholov yisroel thing.
Thanks,
-Shmutzi
Entry Filed under: Good vs. Evil, Ruckus, torah. .
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1.
break all chains | October 18, 2007 at 3:09 am
I believe Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai is also thought to have been a leader of the Merkavah school of speculative mysticism:
Perhaps the book on RYBZ by Jacob Neusner might go into this further.
Here from the Tosefta on Chagigah: Pereq Bet:
מעשה ברבן יוחנן בן זכאי שהיה רוכב על החמור והיה רבי אלעזר בן ערך מחמר אחריו אמר לו רבי שנה פרק אחד במעשה מרכבה אמר לו לא [כן אמרתי לך מתחלה שאין שונין] במרכבה ביחיד אלא אם כן היה חכם מבין מדעתו אמר לו מעתה ארצה לפניך אמר לו אמור פתח רבי אלעזר בן ערך ודרש במעשה מרכבה ירד רבי יוחנן בן זכאי מן החמור ונתעטף בטליתו וישבו שניהם על גבי אבן תחת הזית והרצה לפניו עמד ונשקו ואמר ברוך ה’ אלהי ישראל אשר נתן בן לאברהם אבינו שיודע להבין ולדרוש בכבוד אביו שבשמים יש נאה דורש ואין נאה מקיים נאה מקיים ואין נאה דורש [אלעזר בן ערך] נאה דורש ונאה מקיים אשריך [אברהם] אבינו שאלעזר בן ערך יצא מחלציך [שיודע להבין ולדרוש בכבוד אביו שבשמים
2.
Yhosephus | October 18, 2007 at 10:52 am
maybe a specific guiding question?
3.
ker-a-velt-heint | October 18, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Rabbi Yochanan ben Zachai says, that coming once upon a man who was gathering wood, he addressed him, but at first he made no reply. Afterward, however, he came up and said, “Rabbi, I’m not a living man, but a dead one.” “If thou art a dead man,” said I, “what is this wood for?” He replied, “When I was alive upon earth, I and an associate of mine committed a certain sin in my shop, and when we were taken thence, we were sentenced to the punishment of mutual burning; so I gather wood to burn him, and he does the same to burn me.” I then asked him, “How long are you to be punished thus?” He replied, “When I came here my wife was enceinte, and I know she gave birth to a boy. May I beg thee, therefore, to see that the child is instructed by a teacher, for as soon as he is able to repeat, ‘Bless ye the blessed Lord!’ I shall be brought up hence and be free from this punishment in hell.”
Tanu d’by Eliyahu.
The venerable Hillel had eighty disciples, thirty of whom were worthy that the Shechinah should rest upon them, as it rested upon Moses our Rabbi; and thirty of them were worthy that the sun should stand still (for them), as it did for Joshua the son of Nun; and twenty of them stood midway in worth. The greatest of all of them was Jonathan ben Uzziel, and the least of all was Rabbi Yochanan ben Zacchai. It is said of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zacchai that he did not leave unstudied the Bible, the Mishna, the Gemara, the constitutions, the legends, the minutiae of the law, the niceties of the scribes, the arguments à fortìori and from similar premises, the theory of the change of the moon, the Gematria, the parable of the unripe grapes and {174} the foxes, the language of demons, of palm-trees, and of ministering angels.
Bava Bathra, fol. 134, col. 1.
Rabbi Yochanan the son of Zacchai lived a hundred and twenty years; forty he devoted to commerce, forty to study, and forty to teaching.
Rosh Hashanah, fol. 30, col. 2.
It is related by the Rabbis that Rabbon Yochanan ben Zacchai was once riding out of Jerusalem accompanied by his disciples, when he saw a young woman picking barley out of the dung on the road. On his asking her name, she told him that she was the daughter of Nikodemon ben Gorion. “What has become of thy father’s riches?” said he, “and what has become of thy dowry?” “Dost thou not remember,” said she, “that charity is the salt of riches?” (Her father had not been noted for this virtue.) “Dost thou not remember signing my marriage contract?” {225} said the woman. “Yes,” said the Rabbi, “I well remember it. It stipulated for a million gold denarii from thy father, besides the allowance from thy husband,” etc.
Kethuboth, fol. 66, col. 2.
Rabbi Yochanan ben Zachai was once asked by his disciples how he had attained such length of days. “Never once,” he said, “in my life have I acted irreverently within four cubits of a place where prayer is offered; never have I called a person by a wicked name; nor have I ever failed to sanctify the Sabbath over a cup of wine. Once my aged mother sold her head-dress to buy the consecration wine for me.”
Meggillah., fol. 27, col. 2.
The Rabbis have taught:—Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot did not fall on the right, and the crimson band did not turn white; the light in the west did not burn, and the gates of the Temple opened of themselves, so that Rabbi Yochanan ben Zacchai rebuked them, and said, “O Temple! Temple! why art thou dismayed? I know thy end will be that thou shalt be destroyed, for Zachariah the son of Iddo has already predicted respecting thee (Zech. xi. i), ‘Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.’”
Yoma., fol. 39, col. 2.
“There are two ways before me, one leading into Paradise, the other into Hell.” When Yochanan, the son of Zachai, was sick unto death, his disciples came to visit him; and when he saw them he wept, upon which his disciples exclaimed, “Light of Israel! Pillar of the right! Mighty Hammer! why weepest thou?” He replied, “If I were going to be led into the presence of a king, who is but flesh and blood, to-day here and to-morrow in the grave, whose anger with me could not last forever, whose sentence against me, were it even unto death, could not endure forever, and whom perhaps I might pacify with words or bribe with money, yet for all that should I weep; but now that I am about to enter the presence of the King of kings, the Holy One—blessed be He forever and ever!—whose anger would be everlasting, whose sentence of death or imprisonment admits of no reprieve, and who is not to be pacified with words nor bribed with money, and in whose presence there are two roads before me, one leading into Paradise and the other into Hell, and should I not weep?” Then prayed they him, and said, “Rabbi, give us thy farewell blessing;” and he said unto them, “Oh that the fear of God may be as much upon you as the fear of man.”
Berachoth, fol. 28, col. 2.
All of the above are out of “Hebraic Literature Translations from THE TALMUD, MIDRASHIM and KABBALA”
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14368/14368-h/14368-h.htm
if its of any help let me know- can do more like these- or if you have specific questions or thesis
love
4.
Yhosephus | October 18, 2007 at 3:12 pm
many people believe the Roman’s killed Jesus. Actually, it was Yochanan Ben Zakkai, who betrayed Christ to Rome.
Kidding! Just Jerusalem. Strike the Vipers from the nest, and let me start something nice up north.
5.
shmutzi | October 18, 2007 at 4:26 pm
okay so I’m changing the topic to a more suitable one for myself. Failed Messias of Jewish History, from the roman empire to the Spanish Expulsion.
this is more up my alley.
6.
hi mon | October 18, 2007 at 4:56 pm
“I’m asking for intelligent opinions and views. Preferably ones that can be backed.”
opinions are just that. – ‘ an opinion’ they can not be backed, otherwise their not an opinion.
7.
radloh | October 18, 2007 at 5:21 pm
shmutzi,
what are you like a regular rebeitzin? lubavitchers…
8.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 6:01 pm
‘is said of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zacchai that he did not leave unstudied the Bible, the Mishna, the Gemara,’
thw gemara did not exist during the life of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zacchai.
9.
break all chains | October 18, 2007 at 6:13 pm
“thw gemara did not exist during the life of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zacchai.”
Chas ve-sholem!!!!
It was all given at Sinai?
I was there, and u were “nisht dere” lo alaynu
10.
radloh | October 18, 2007 at 6:21 pm
nisht dere was dere. i saw him.
11.
break all chains | October 18, 2007 at 6:32 pm
ok shmutzi. ‘ll try n help ya..
all the messiahs were successful….it’s we who failed.
we didn’t want them badly enough.
next time u hear people singing: “we want moshiach now!!!” , don’t just go back to your essay.
scream along with them!!!!
12.
radloh | October 18, 2007 at 7:04 pm
i read a book in israel called “100 jewish messiahs” by some guy in california. as an introduction, it is a cute book. it gave me some names i did not know of…, including a a yemenite moshiach from the early 1900’s, about whom many hymns were written, and some, indeed still found in some yemenite prayer books.
13.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 7:06 pm
I was there by Sinai, i remember i was smoking a joint with radloh, i do not remember any gemara being given, as a matter of fact the first time i heard mention of the gemara, when i was 5 or 6, i ask “what gemara ? i don’t remember any gemara.”
They all told me that was to young to remember, finally one person was modeh to me that it was all made up.
14.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 7:11 pm
lo alaynu?
Thank god(?)
that i’m not you, y the fuck would i want to be you?
15.
shmutzi | October 18, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Radloh, you mean this guy “Shukr Kuhayl I,”
do you know anything about him.
I’m no rebeitzin. I’m a student of the universes.
do you remember the title of the book?
PS nisht dere, I hear your point. Its valid. but you were there. Theoretically so was the gemura. But like I said guys. (hi_mom) Opinions that can be backed up. I dont know what the gemura holds are far as rashi. But Thats what I mean when i say it has to be able to be backed up. Some commentary by a popular dead guy.
16.
shmutzi | October 18, 2007 at 7:33 pm
also I’m going along the lines of why we are always so vulnerable and fall prey to these false messiahs.
How we are always waiting for something better to come along. Our entire religion and belief system is based on a promise of a redemption. Why cant we just be content with the world we have??
17.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 7:34 pm
THE GEMARA WAS NOT THERE!
18.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 7:39 pm
OK so you want to claim that the gemara was there, theoretically.
Well in that case say that him along with all Jews, when ever they lived, studied ALL Jewish text EVER written, and non Jewish as well(y not).
19.
shmendrick | October 18, 2007 at 7:45 pm
because what we have, sucks
20.
shmutzi | October 18, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Yes nisht dere. Where were you during that class. Shit I was smoking in the bathroom during that class, but at least i still remember it. Every jewish soul was there. but I’m not talking about mt. sini I’m talking about, failed messiahs
21.
break all chains | October 18, 2007 at 8:04 pm
What a bunch of apikursim here.
Not only was the gemarra given there, but every sichah as well.
Shukr Kuhail’s divrei toirah were given there as well.
He couldnt come properly as moshiach because everyone was goofing off during Moshe’s delivery.
22.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 8:07 pm
yes of course every Jewish soul was there, i remember that class, i also remember being by mt. Sinai, as i mentioned in a previous comment.
but I AM talking about mt. Sinai.
23.
shmendrick | October 18, 2007 at 8:17 pm
u were goofing off wen moshe was talking? how dare u
24.
radloh | October 18, 2007 at 8:24 pm
u guys making your way to chulent?
25.
break all chains | October 18, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Everything that will be said tonight at chulent, including the lashon harah and rechilus ,was already heard at Sinai.
Redundancy is boring, but it seems like chazureh is in order
26.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Everything that will be said tonight at chulent, including the lashon harah and rechilus ,was already heard before creation, what you think that ‘ain mukom v’zman’ started at Sinai? right now is Sinai, of course it was already heard, because it’s all happening NOW and at SHULENT. and always.
27.
nisht dere | October 18, 2007 at 8:39 pm
I will be there at some point or the other, i don’t know about the others over here.
28.
atgate231 | October 18, 2007 at 8:43 pm
There were a number of Messianic figures in the 8th century that people don’t talk about much. One was Severus (or Serene) the Syrian in about 720 who was quite convincing and many Jews left Spain for the Holy Land. Apparently he made a killing off the whole shpiel and there may have been a girl involved. In Persia, also in the 8th century, there was a series of messianic movements started by Abu Isa al Isphahani who gathered an army and after at least one victory was killed in battle fighting the Muslims. His student was Yudgan and his followers were called Yudganiyya. Two other dudes by the names of Shadgan and Mushkan were also leaders of the movement(s) at a later stage. Mushkan too died in battle. These movements show considerable Shiitic influenced (not the least of which was their extreme militarism). They were around for a few hundred years.
29.
cavemanrabbi@yahoo.com | October 19, 2007 at 4:25 am
u forgot
mordecai tendler who convinced some not so bright females that he was the moshian shel yisroel and having a sexual tryst with him was a misvah!
ditto for ephraim boruch halevy bryks bryx and
rabbi mendel epstein who impregnated a mentally disabled girl after confusing her with the same nonsense..
and of course myself, who is the messiah incarnate..
30.
YaLHaK's_Garden_Neo-Sabbatian_Verse | October 19, 2007 at 6:35 pm
THE HERMIT OF THE MARSH
by Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain
The hermit of the marsh,
squatting in his thatchy hut alone,
painted his face with mud and chanted, Om.
Sounds among the yarrow stalks:
shaking pumpkins;
floating bones;
drowning bees;
awakening stones.
We searched for omens in each of these.
“What do you see” we asked.
“Nitchevo,” you answered.
“What do you hear?” we asked.
“Nitchevo,” you said.
“What? Do you see nothing? hear nothing?
I neither hear the pumpkin shaking,
nor the bones breaking,
nor the bees drowing.
“But the stones, the stones,”
we say, “We hear them singing.
singing to the bones.”
* * * *
So now we wait again in this uncertain
hour, between the dark and the daylight,
when the Nightshade begins to flower
and cicada sing:
Hos-podi po-milwi. Has-podi po-milwi.
A lazy beetle rolls its dung across
the sky, while you and I gather moss.
Meanwhile, in another time and place,
the hermit of the marsh has flown his coop,
but left this note:
Be still, and know that I am gone
back home.
Om Shanti Shanti Shanti Om.
31.
Anonymous | October 19, 2007 at 6:51 pm
P.S. Prof. Harris Lenowitz writes brilliantly about these so-called, “failed messiahs” in his book, “The Jewish Messiahs: From the Galilee to Crown Heights.” (Oxford University Press.)
He concludes his inventory and analysis of these messianic claimants — from Jesus to MMS — with an essay titled, “The Characterization of Abandonment” which I think our interlocutor will find particularly interesting, given her concern for how it is we allow ourselves to fall victims to such snake-oil salesmen.
32.
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain | October 19, 2007 at 6:52 pm
P.S. Prof. Harris Lenowitz writes brilliantly about these so-called, “failed messiahs” in his book, “The Jewish Messiahs: From the Galilee to Crown Heights.” (Oxford University Press.)
He concludes his inventory and analysis of these messianic claimants, from Jesus to MMS, with an essay titled, “The Characterization of Abandonment” which I think our interlocutor will find particularly interesting, given her concern for how it is we allow ourselves to fall victims to such snake-oil salesmen.